The proper research on why long toss is bad for your arm!
July 18, 2009
Alan Jaeger is upset that TopVelocity.net has not done the proper research on long tossing. He said in an email to me, “If you are going to be in the public domain, I would urge you to do the proper research.” I am not sure if you have visited his website but I do not see him practicing what he preaches. There is a lot more research posted on TopVelocity.net than www.jaegersports.com but I will still give him what he has requested in his email, “Proper Research.”
I have stated on this website that long toss is not as effective in developing velocity because it forces the thrower to use more of the arm to throw the ball a long distance like 300 feet. I also said that if you want to increase velocity you must develop throwing mechanics that use more big muscle groups, like the core and legs, rather than the small muscle groups, like the shoulders and arm. Once you have learned these “Total Body Mechanics,” like I talk about constantly on this site and have listed in detail in the Ace Pitcher Handbook, you will not only begin to throw harder but you will take more stress off of the arm which will allow you to throw longer.
Now for the research Mr. Jaeger!
I will use Dr. James Andrews and his studies on proper throwing mechanics at the American Sports Medicine Institute to support my claims above. You can read his case studies here http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/baseball.htm.
A quote from Dr. Andrews’ case study on “Interval Throwing Program” states:
“Throwing from flat ground produced a shorter stride and less shoulder external rotation at foot contact, more elbow varus torque during arm cocking, a more upright trunk at ball release……”
A quote from, Dr. Andrews’ case study on “Shoulder Abduction and Lateral Trunk Tilt Influence the Peak Elbow Varus Torque During Pitching” states:
“The combination of 10 degrees of lateral trunk tilt and 100 degrees of shoulder abduction produced the minimum peak varus torque among all conditions in the study. Thus, the results of this simulation study clearly show that shoulder abduction angle and lateral trunk tilt have an affect on elbow varus torque and thus can be helpful in reducing stressful forces on the shoulder and elbow during pitching.”
A quote from Dr. Andrews’ case study on “Flat-Ground Throwing” states:
“Elbow varus torque was greatest during 180 ft’ throwing.”
You can read Dr. Andrews’ case study on “Biomechanics of Elbow Injuries During Throwing” to learn about Elbow Varus Torque here http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/usedarticles/elbow_injuries.htm
Based on these three studies performed by the most respective Doctor in the game of baseball, we learn that throwing long toss at only 180 ft, which was the farthest distance used in the study, causes more elbow varus torque because of the shorter stride and the lack of forward trunk tilt than pitching on a mound. Could you imagine the results of these case studies if they used 300 ft instead of 180 ft?
Mr. Jaeger, I am sure you have an answer for all of this and your Long Toss Program addresses these issues but there is a better way then using this “Old School” approach to “Arm Development.” I believe that better way is learning “Total body mechanics” by using normal throwing distances because we do not throw with just our arms. We also never throw the ball 300 feet in the game. If you want to develop more velocity and decrease injury, you must also work hard to develop fast twitch muscle fibers in the weight room using total body lifts, like the Olympic lifts, along with plyometric training and speed/agility work.
I warn all pitchers that perform a long toss program, that pushes the distances to 300 feet, you better make sure you have “total body mechanics” because if not, based on Dr. Andrews’ case studies above, you are putting extreme amounts of pressure on your elbow which could ruin your arm and end your career.
I am not the only pitching coach against long toss programs. Dick Mill’s has a similar opinion in this video.
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Loading ...Written by Brent Pourciau · Filed Under Pitching Articles
Tagged: ace pitcher, alan jaeger, american sports medicine, American Sports Medicine Institute, asmi, body mechanics, case study, dr james, dr. andrews, elbow, external rotation, Kinematics, muscle groups, program states, public domain, shoulder abduction, sports medicine, sports medicine institute, tilt, Velocity
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Wes Pennington, ASMI Quotes
” However, while elbow varus torque was seen to increase with distance, compressive forces generated at the elbow and shoulder were measured to be less in long distance flat throws. It was pointed out how this may be related to the low incidence of throwing injuries in non-pitchers.
Clearly, within the data itself there is an argument both for, and against, the use of long toss routines in baseball training. While the long toss debate has drawn more controversy over the past few years and arm injuries have increased, ASMI has decided to revisit the question with more knowledge and precision. More is known about throwing mechanics today than when the previous studies were completed- around 1995-96- and several limitations present in previous studies can now be addressed, including a more accurate program to analyze the data. Finally, it is important to note that no studies have been conducted examining throwing from 180+ feet so no definitive, quantitative statements can be made about throwing mechanics, forces, etc during any ‘extreme long toss’ until any data is gathered.”
To read Wes Pennington’s quote and some other great points on this subject at the ASMI forums follow this link http://asmiforum.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=897
Another forum on this issue http://letstalkpitching.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11203&start=0
Proper form in any body movement is key but the only way to gain max arm speed is to overload your arm with long toss. The same way plyos and any other extreme weight program there are risks and of course huge rewards if your body can take the abuse you are asking it to take. Anybody that says long toss is not good for your arm to develope strength and endurance has never fully tried long toss for an extended period of time. Your arm is a muscle just like your legs how fun was it the first time you squatted ? But you keep on lifting and lifting and with better form each time it get easier to lift more wieght. NOT A SERMON JUST A THOUGHT
I would agree with your comparison of plyos to long toss on the arm muscles but remember that plyos is breaking down the muscles of the legs and core. These are big muscle groups that can heal overnight. Long tossing breaks down the delicate muscles of the rotator cuff and arm. These are small muscle groups that take a few days to heal. This is why arm recovery is a major problem for pitchers and this is the main point of the article. Long tossing 180 feet plus forces the body to use more arm because of the trajectory of the throw. Therefore using long toss to “Strengthen your arm” is risky because it is putting a lot of stress on your shoulder and elbow. If your arm isn’t recovering quick enough you are vulnerable to damage. There are many other ways to build velocity that are a lot safer and in my book more effective.
i think its strange that you guys say so many great things about tim lincecum on this site but say long toss is bad for you when lincecum is a huge advocate for long toss
This is because I am talking about long tossing more than 180 feet. I do not believe that he is an advocate of this.
i would most deffinently agree that long toss is bad for baseball players. Dick Mills is the only guy, until now, that has not bought into this whole long toss stuff. Every one i know thinks long toss is good for you. Back in the “old’ days pitchers didn’t long toss, and they didn’t miss starts. They threw a lot in between games. Why have we become so overprotectective with pitch counts and everything? It’s rediculous.
Not sure why the Dick Mills video is up there. I understand it is in support of the article, but it is just irrelevant. Dick Mills is comparing a Cy-Young award winner who has the most unique mechanics in all of baseball to a random person who he associated with Jaeger. I have no association with Jaeger myself, other than a clinic I attended at the age of 15 ten years ago, but I played long toss my entire career and not once did I ever look as bad mechanically as that kid in the video. Long toss is valuable only if done correctly, just like anything else. Drinking water is harmful to the body if you make a bad decision and drink too much. In the same way, long toss must be done correctly to be helpful.
In my opinion from my knowledge of pitching and observing pitcher after pitcher, game after game “HERKY JERKYING” RECOILING” their arms,short striding, early rotation, throwing across their body’s, stutter step “STRIDING” starting then hesitating the stride, taking all day “SLOW MOTION” from start to stride finish, then all of the sudden here goes the arm only exploding with nothing else, “NO BODY ASSISTANCE” with it to throw the ball to it’s intended target is one reason why there are the huge numbers of pitchers and potential pitchers with chronic sore arms and surgeries from the major leagues down through the minor systems on down into our youth as young as 13 yrs. old. Before I signed a professional baseball contract I spent many hours throwing from the outfield starting at age 12yrs.old and then also in the minor leagues, I am now 77 yrs. old and can still throw decent batting practice to high school and college players at 50 ft. of course, if I do not come up with a wild streak at the time. What I observe is that there is too much over distance long toss throwing and substituting long toss and other things and not near enough time spent on bull pens and on mound throwing for pitchers.
The main reason for the sore arms and surgeries and other throwing inadequacy’s is the drastic need to have an experienced, knowledgeable, competent “PITCHING” “TEACHER” who can teach them how to properly pitch with their whole body’s from the ground up to alleviate the tremendous strain created on the arm when throwing a baseball
Hitters have the same delemma here.
Don Ervin
kom-ervin@yahoo.com
at the time
Dick Mills finds some washed up kid “trying to get back into pro ball” and compares him with the best pitcher in baseball. Then he says that since the kid is at Jaegers facility that he can assume that he is doing everything correctly and compares him to the best pitcher in baseball. Then he does not mention that Lincecum long tosses as much as anyone! I have seen him plenty of times stretch it out well over 300 feet with a high arc. Like said above, the kid in the video is not a good example of what long toss should look like and you are comparing him to some of the best (In my opinion) mechanics in all of baseball.
Also, there is so much talk about how useless longtoss is because you never throw more then 60 ft in a game. You are right, pitchers never throw more then 60 feet. But they also dont do squats, lunges, rows, bench press etc during a game either, so does it make weight lifting useless? I dont think so. Long toss simply trains the muscles similarly to resistance training the weight room