Pitching Coach Critique
June 21, 2008
This is where I critique Pitching Coaches that have made their name online. They make their money critiquing you so let’s turn it on them for a change.
I have parents calling me all the time and expressing their frustrations with weeding through all of the pitching propaganda online. They want to know what the best instruction for their son is. I usually say “I hate to tell you this but I can only give you my bias opinion.” So I have decided to do better and put together this article of critiquing these Coaches online. Just remember this is TopVelocity.net so I will only be discussing Velocity Science and Training issues.
Paul Reddick www.paulreddickbaseball.com
on “Weight lifting for pitching”
Please watch his video before reading my points below.
First point
Mr. Reddick isn’t a Doctor, Physical Therapist or a certified training. So for him to educate us on tendons, ligaments and injury he better back it up with some professional medical documentation. I would take this advice with all Coach’s. This is why we have sports doctors, therapists and trainers.
Second Point
He is correct about over training the push muscles to pull muscles but this for any sport would be a bad idea. This is why a good trainer will make sure you are building joint integrity. Which means training both push and pull muscles equally.
Third Point
I am not a Doctor but my experience has shown me that little muscles do not make stronger tendons and ligaments like he is referring to. I guess he doesn’t know who Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens, Eric Gagne, Mark McGuire, Barry Bonds, Jose Canseco, and Jason Giambi is.
What I learned through experience is that strong muscles make strong tendons and ligaments. The most effective way I have developed muscle strength, preferably fast twitch muscle strength, is from Olympic lifting and plyometric training but I am not the only one saying this. D1 Training facilities make a fortune on this philosophy for all sports. They are backed by top athletes in sports like baseball, football and basketball.
Last Point
Mr. Riddick says that long term lifting for a pitcher can lead to injury and first poor performance. The older Nolan Ryan got the more he incorporated a lifting routine. He credited his longevity to his strength training in the weight room.
I am not saying that any strength training routine will help a pitcher. I strongly believe in Olympic lifting and Plyometric training for pitchers. I personally gained six mph in one year post surgery from this type of training and I wasn’t the only one.
I would say that Mr. Riddick’s advice hear would be good advice for someone who is already throwing in the upper eighties and is over 18 years of age. This type of advice for someone throwing in the low eighties or less and who is 18 years or older, you need to get Bigger, Stronger, Faster, if you are going to make it at the next level! There is no better way for an athlete to make this happen than through Olympic lifting and plyometric training.
Dr. Mike Marshall www.drmikemarshall.com
When I first found Dr. Marshall I watched his videos and about half way through them I thought it was a joke. I actually started laughing. It is obvious he developed these theories after his many years of pitching. This is a red flag. I would never take advice from a Coach who never practiced what he preached. If Dr. Marshall would have tried his techniques he would have found that his theories are useless.
All of his videos are about preventing elbow injury. He is saying through his many years of scientific study, he found that during pitching, these small muscles around the elbow are being over developed and causing restricted range of motion. So his techniques are based on changing the pitching delivery to prevent this over development of these small muscles.
This is absurd! This would be like advising a Nascar driver to drive on only two wheels at a time to prevent wearing his tires out.
Where Dr. Marshall missed the boat was the revolution of baseball through Strength Training. He never mentions this new world of sport specific training because more than likely he doesn’t even know it exists.
What we have learned through strength training is that we can rebuild joint integrity in the weight room. We can prevent over development in the small throwing arm muscle with a good joint integrity program. This way we do not need to degrade our performance as an athlete/pitcher to prevent injury.
It is unfortunate that someone like Dr. Marshall believes in these absurd theories because he has brought a lot of good information to the pitching world.
Alan Jeager www.jaegersports.com
Alan Jeager has no professional pitching experience. His Pitching Instruction involves Long Toss and Yoga. Watching this video I heard nothing about mechanics and actual scientific data. All I heard was him talking about Freedom and looseness in the arm. What does that mean? Pitching is as technical as shooting a high powered rifle. This video sounds like a ballet dance.
His long toss routine is as Old School as it gets. This is the same old stuff they told us pitchers back in the day. You hear nothing about the actually physics of the drill or delivery and all of this fluff about Freedom and Looseness and the calm before the storm.
So why is this long toss routine worthless? Because it is based on the philosophy that the arm throws the pitch and NOT on the philosophy that we throw a pitch with the entire body as a single unit. Therefore it is unnecessary to put this kind of wear and tear on the arm outside of competitive play.
The arm can only handle so much. The body can handle so much more. So spend more time on learning how to get more out of your body than more out of your arm. This is the key to your success as a pitcher.
Alan Jeager has a good band program and Yoga program for mental training but nothing he teaches actually helps the pitcher move up levels of the game as an athlete.
His long toss program should be avoided completely. A lot of bad mechanics will develop from long tossing along with soreness and injury. You should never exceed more than 90 feet when tossing. This is the same for running. You should never run more than the distance of the bases. This means we are training outside of the realm of the game. This will not help us improve as athletes, baseball players and pitchers.
Dick Mills www.pitching.com
Finally, someone who gets it! When I was a young pitcher I used the Dick Mills program and it was fairly old school. He would have me do drills in the mirror like breaking my arms from the glove, getting into the T-position, it was basically choreography. I also did his weighted ball drills for velocity training, which beat my arm to death. The entire time I would follow his son who was the same age as me. He was a top round pick from Arizona and then all of a sudden he had arm problems. I immediately threw the Dick Mills program out the window because at this same time I started having arm problems. I do not credit Dick Mills to my arm problems but all I knew was that it wasn’t helping. Then a few years later I am having arm surgery and Dick Mills is changing his entire program.
After listening to this video I see now that Dick Mills has seen the light but what bothers me is it is all in theory for him. What I mean is he had a long professional career and never pitched with this new scientific information. I find it hard to listen to a Coach or Teacher who is not teaching from firsthand experience. Don’t get me wrong, we need Coaches like Dick Mills to save pitchers from the likes of Alan Jaeger’s long toss program or Dr. Marshall’s pronation nightmare. It is just hard to find a pitching Coach online today who teaches physics driven mechanics with firsthand experience. Yes, I am bragging now because I learned this scientific understanding of pitching and then used it to overcome my almost career ending shoulder surgery. I went from 86 to 94 mph and played minor league ball after doctors told me I would never play again.
If you watch my instructional videos you will see a better understanding of what Dick Mills is teaching. He misses the point on a lot of issues because he has never applied it to his own pitching delivery. This is why I continue to pitch in amateur leagues. I feel that once I stop pitching, I must stop coaching because I will lose touch of this complex understanding of the dynamic pitching delivery.
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Tagged: athlete, barry bonds, baseball, bigger, Critique, doctor, Dr. Mike Marshall, education, eric gagne, fast twitch muscle, faster, football, frustrations, game, improvements, ing, injury, instruction, jason giambi, jose canseco, learning, mark mcguire, marshalls, mechanics, medical documentation, muscle strength, muscles, Nolan Ryan, Olympic Lifting, Paul Reddick, performance, physical therapist, physics, pitch, pitcher, pitchers, pitches, pitching, Pitching Coaches, plyometric training, program, revolution, roger clemens, science, second, shoulders, strength, stronger, surgery, tendons and ligaments, tendons ligaments, throwing, timing, training, Velocity, Videos, weeding, weight, weight lifting
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8 Responses to “Pitching Coach Critique”
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You unfairly assessed Dr. Marshall. Your comments regarding his video are way off the mark. He did, in fact, practice what he preaches.
For the sake of whatever students you have, recommend you take a closer look at his training regimen and arm path. His arm path and training are solid, even if you want to keep a traditional wind up. I gained 10 MPH and throw every day (for over 1 year after shoulder surgeries). It is not uncommon for me to throw over 100 max effort pitches per day.
If you are truly committed to scientific study, you must re-examine. Just trying to help.
100 max effort pitches per day is not necessary and is destructive to the rotator cuff.
Dr. Marshall believes a pitcher should consciously pronate his arm to relieve pressure on the elbow. This may work but how does this make you a better pitcher and how are you gaining velocity.
I believe proper pronation of the arm is natural once you focus on putting majority torque in the core instead of the shoulder. This also generates more velocity and takes more pressure off of the arm but I am not the only one saying this. Tim Lincecum is quoted here saying the same, http://topvelocity.net/the-lincecum-revolution/.
I have read Dr. Marshall’s theories for many years because he has discovered some good information but he has used this information to misguided his followers.
If you can tell us how Dr. Marshall trains velocity and why you say that you gained 10 mph we would be all ears. Please make it detailed and give us some classic physics to back it up. Thanks for your comments!
Dr. Tom House was at the forefront of utilizing science as a means of measure in the effectiveness of the human body throwing a baseball. Through his research with the American Sports Medicine Institute, he was able to base all of his teachings on science. And I find it amusing that Dr. House’s book “The Art and Science of Pitching” has a neighbor on the shelf aptly called “The Science and Art of Pitching”, by Dick Mills. It’s no wonder that Mr. Mills changed his entire program. It’s already been laid out for us. I am sure Mr. Mills is a highly intelligent man, and obviously extremely enthusiastic about pitching, but credit should be given to Dr. House, A.S.M.I, and a company named Biokinetics for truly bringing science into the forefront in the pitching world.
Well written! Thank you for bringing up this topic. I have not critiqued Dr. Tom House because he is the pioneer of what I call these Physics driven mechanics. I have been following Tom House since the day he put out the “Nolan Ryan Pitching Bible” and he taught the stand tall and fall nightmare. I have a lot of respect for him but I feel he gets a little to mechanical and loses the athlete in the pitcher. My partner on the AcePitcher Instructional Videos is NPA certified and does some work with him at USC. I plan to soon write a article about Dr. Tom House and how he started this revolution. I hold Dr. Tom House far above Dick Mills. I appreciate the comment!
As have I worked with him on numerous occasions, he is nothing short of amazing. Good luck and please visit my website if you get the opportunity!
I just visited the site. A lot of good info. You didn’t post your domain so I did. http://www.biopitchbaseball.com
You are sending out some excellent and very helpful information for those who will take positive advantage of what you are saying, keep the good info. coming whether you are physically into the game or not.
Yes, as you say, first hand experience is a most important teacher during one’s quest to become the very best one can mentally and physically become, but those qualities alone do not allow one to automatically become a competent teacher, to be so, in my opinion one must take one’s experience and knowledge gained to the next and most important level,”TEACHING” not coaching, which can only be successfully accomplished by studying, learning and becoming an excellent student of the game from the best teachers of the game, there is a significant difference between “TEACHING” which is prerequisite to, and,coaching, consequently I cannot agree with you on your opinion about losing touch with the complex understanding of the dynamic pitching delivery and to or not to coach and that one has to play to be able to coach, “IT’S NOT EXACTLY WHATS “IN YA” “PHYSICAL BEING” “IT’S WHATS “IN YA” ” MENTAL MIND,”There are many times when knowledge and being an excellent student of the game takes precedence over physical experience only, personally, I will listen to those with the teachable knowledge over those with physical attributes only.
I have an acquaintance who pitched under Tom House and he told me that their pitchers at that time experienced a lot of sore arm problems.
I have to say that as I sit here and read your pitching info. and view your excellent video clips of Lincecum etc. I close my eyes and see a lot of Dick Mills in there, by what you say about him overhauling and making many adjustments to his thinking and ways of teaching tells me that he is very open minded and is making necessary adjustments.
I am not impressed with professional pitching or for that matter hitting as a whole except for those few experienced and smart players, to view them flail around and arm pitch is disgusting but until there become “PITCHING” “TEACHERS” not just coaches who can “TEACH” how to properly use the whole body from the ground up which alleviates the tremendous abuse and tension to the arm created by the unnatural act of throwing a baseball, the enormous number of unnecessary chronic sore arms and surgeries entailed from the major league level on down through the pro levels, on down through the college level into high school and even as young as 12-13 yrs. old will continue to grow, you being a minor league player as I was we both know that as far as pitchers and hitters are concerned they are left out in left field as far as having an experienced and competent “TEACHER” to bring out their physical and mental potential.
My motto is, “IT’S WHAT “YA” “KNOW” “AND THE ACTION “YA” TAKE” “THAT GITS IT DONE”
Don Ervin
kom_ervin@yahoo.com
I think there are many professional pitchers who were great pitchers, but didn’t and do not understand anatomy and physiology, or the mechanics of pitching as well. What I mean is they would listen to the pitching instructor, and may or may not have an idea why the instructor was changing his mechanics. We pitching coaches are a reason why kids become adults who have a lack of knowledge about what we learned. For example, as you have stated many of these pitching instruction professionals have varying theories they like to incorporate into teaching mechanics, but do not teach the children why they believe in these concepts other than the statements such as: “Because I pitched professionally and had success.”
One thing I have learned throughout the years is that not every pitcher has a great knowledge of their own mechanics, and sometimes the best coaches are the ones whom have studied the sport from afar. I agree that the person should have some pitching experience, but it doesn’t necessarily translate to a great instructor. Some of the greatest and most talented players have had children early and needed to support them, and others had injuries. For whatever reason one may have a great knowledge of the game and not have been a professional pitcher, and this shouldn’t diminish the teaching value they bring to the table. We should judge pitching instructors based solely on their teachings and not specifically on their MLB experiences.
Teaching from the “T” position is not necessarily harmful, though I have found that teaching a modified version of the “T” position is more conducive to the extension to release transfer of energy to the front leg. The front leg is the catalyst in pitching, and it drives the hips, which in turn drives the shoulders and arm. The more extension you have when that leg lands the more torque from the hips is involved in driving the shoulder and arm through the zone.
It is not how fast you get from the rubber to the front leg that dictates velocity, but rather it is the absorption and conversion of that momentum into the front leg that will dictate velocity. What I am saying is that if you take a relaxed step into a stiff front leg and it drives back, you will have converted that momentum into hip rotation energy that can easily drive the hips and shoulder. A hitter generates a lot of power from the hips and doesn’t even step far. It isn’t about jumping from a pitching rubber to the front leg, its all about using minimal energy to maximum velocity. I am not saying that a small step is the best, because I don’t believe that at all. I am only saying that a`big step is not necessarily going to make you pitch faster. Sometimes the further you step, the less that you get from the front leg in driving the hips because the front leg is bent and doesn’t straighten and go stiff. There are always exceptions to this rule of course, but it sure doesn’t happen overnight and also can entail control problems.
One doesn’t need to bulk up to have velocity. It is the flexibility of a pitcher that is a great asset. That is why we don’t see many bodybuilders that pitch, especially not as the top prospects we would expect them to be. Nolan Ryan had a training regimen that worked for him, though I also would like to point out the plain laziness of the pitchers from the 1960’s and 70’s in the Spring Training camps. These guys didn’t do hardly any training, yet were durable in every way. We can also go earlier, in fact, all the way back in history and see that the pitchers were pretty dominant, lazy and durable in every way. Even today we can look at a young Pedro Martinez who threw with great velocity, and a Felix Hernandez as well. 16 year old Felix was not some great weight lifting Venezuela prospect, just an average skinny kid, the same as Pedro was when discovered.